SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey friends, men who are watching, joining, listening. This is episode three of this conversation we've been having heading into Father's Day. Really excited about this final episode and what we believe God wants to do in your life and in your family in this season. And I'm here with some friends, and we got Pastor Shane, Pastor David Mackity, and I'm Pastor David Oliver, I guess. I don't know, like Pastor David, Pastor David, and Pastor Shane. We got David Square and Pastor Shane. It's going to be awesome. Just two incredible men leaders in our church. And uh would just love for you guys to introduce yourselves and talk a little bit about your family and your story.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

I'm Pastor Shane, executive pastor here at North Place Church. Been here for over 16 years. I have three children that are all adults now. So it's hard to believe that that's the case. But yeah, it's um been an interesting journey, an incredible journey as a dad, um, hopefully as a mentor to my kids. So that's that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Yeah. Uh my name is David Mackate. Uh my wife and I are the young adult pastors and school ministry pastors. And I have one kid. Come on. Uh, and we had him just a couple of months ago. And so it's crazy being a dad for the first time. Uh, it's a huge blessing, and I love it. It uh changed my world though. I know that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah. He was born with your faux hawk. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah. He came out of the womb a lot more hair than I was expecting. It's awesome. It's awesome. Um, and uh, me and my wife, Claudia, don't have any children, but this conversation's been so rich for us. Um, it's been so cool. And really, I think that's that's a big part of what we're gonna even talk through today. It's not just for dads, um, but for men in general and even men who want to be fathers, who have that heart one day. Just really anybody who's on the road to following Jesus is gonna need and could benefit from this conversation, which is, I think in a nutshell, is the idea that the the best fathers have been surrounded or are surrounded by the best brothers. That men who really are healthy and strong, the best gift that men could give to their kids, to their families, to the world is really a healthy soul, which can only come by being surrounded by people. That's a huge deal for us as a church family. We talk all the time about this idea of spiritual family. Um, that yes, we need our real family. We're celebrating that on Father's Day, dads and grandfathers, but also just the role of spiritual fathers, being a spiritual father or a spiritual brother to other people, um, and just how formative that is for us. Older men on the journey, men who are with us, and men that we invest in. Um, so just curious, has there ever been a man in your life? It could have been someone who played more of a, I mean, they were alongside you on the journey as a spiritual brother, or maybe they were someone who invested deeply in you as a spiritual father, um, as a man who who has a family, who has kids, like how have those voices of other men shaped your life and what does that mean for you? How has that impacted you in yours in your journey of parenthood and just living life?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

I mean, yeah, for for me, I've I've been very blessed to have so many men in my life. But when you start talking about those that had the most influence, for me, I was very blessed to have an incredibly godly father. Um, didn't start out in ministry. He was a leader in the church, things like that. I remember actually being in elementary school and my dad going into ministry and making that transition. But he was also so incredibly intentional with me and my sister that we learned to love the church because of the way he modeled that with us. Um, in so many different instances, um, pastors' kids are turned away from the church and different things. And he was very intentional not to let that happen for us. And so that's been a big part that I learned that I was very careful with my own kids. You know, there's been so many others, uh, former youth pastors and people that I've worked with that helped us, even in the moments of transition or when calling and you're questioning different things, um, that have been able to speak in and say, have you considered this? And sometimes it's challenging. It's not always the green light, it's the questions that need to be asked. And so I would say my dad's number one former youth pastors, people I've worked with, huge influence, and hopefully what I've learned from them, I've been able to pass down to my own kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah. Um, I will never forget um walking in my freshman year high school and meeting Mr. Dorman. And he was my basketball basketball coach, uh, but also my geometry teacher. And he shaped my life in a way that I would have never expected. I, you know, went through high school, had a lot of friends, but then got to a point where I just became really lonely and needed someone who was a Christian, a follower of Jesus, to speak in my life, who was further down the road than I was. And thankfully, like you, Pastor Shane, I have an incredible dad who did that throughout my whole life, still does that to this day. But Jason Dorman was a guy who spoke in my life. He believed in me more than I did when I was in high school. Um, and just gave me a friend. He was my teacher, he was one of my basketball coaches, but at the end of the day, he was really my friend. Uh my first year in high school was his first year teaching. And so it just it just lined up. And and over those four years, he I know that God put him in my life to make me a better follower of Jesus. Yeah. Um, and to have a have a brother who it came in a very non-traditional way. Uh, but man, I use that voice for you. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

And I think out of curiosity, like I I think there is this um unspoken, and I don't even I think we acknowledge it. So maybe unspoken is the wrong word, unintentional, probably, like we don't mean to. I think we would maybe all a lot more men, we'd be keen to embracing that idea when we're young. Yeah, you need good friends, you need good mentors, you need good voices. And then it's like this weird, um, unspoken narrative that I hit college and I kind of start to step out, branch out, and then I start to like pursue a girl, get married, have family, and then then I'm the man, and that's on me. Yeah, and and those voices become secondary and unnecessary. Or that's uh that's at least the narrative. I don't think we mean to believe that, but yeah, I think we kind of get to a point where okay, now I gotta be that for somebody. But there we do believe biblically, there's an understanding you need that in every season of your life. Right, yeah, right. And so why do you think maybe as men as we grow, why where do you think that comes from? Why do you think that's such a struggle? Have you experienced that? Have you seen that? What's that? What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, I mean, I think it's it what it comes down to is it's pride. It comes down to I'm the man in this situation, I have these responsibilities, and I am responsible for this. No one else is. And so you take it upon yourself. Um, there's been several times throughout my life that I I've caught myself in that moment, and you forget about those relationships or being able to have the freedom to ask the right question and say, hey, look, I need help here. You know, there was there was a moment um in the last five, eight years, even, um, where I caught myself in a situation to where I knew things weren't right and I was trying to do it on my own because that was the way I had been raised. You know, I had an incredible father, but we come from a very rural community. And the the thought was you don't show weakness, you put your head down, you do get through this because you're the man and that's your responsibility to do that. And that's exactly what I was doing. And around me, there was all this confusion, and I and it came to a point where I remember my kids were looking at my wife saying, What's wrong with dad? You know, and saying, Why is he so upset every time he walks in the door? And I can remember reading something somewhere about when you walk into the door after work, that first 90 seconds will set the tone for the evening with your family. And I was failing at it. Yeah, I was failing at it walking in the door. And I'll never forget incredible leader that's still in our church today. It was actually on a Sunday in my office here at the church, walked in and said, I'm concerned about you. What is going on? And I broke. And I broke. And it was that moment of realizing you don't have to do this alone. But it took God sending someone to me to prove that to me. And then the benefit of that was is then I was able to go to my own peers. You know, here I'm an executive pastor with Pastor John, Pastor Brian's my lead pastor, and sit down with them and say, look, this is where I'm at. And I am headed off of a cliff if I'm not careful. And the grace they gave and the tools they gave, it was one of those moments for me to realize you do not have to do this on alone, and there's alone, and there's nothing going on around you that is worth losing your family, your ministry, or anything else without asking for help. So it was a big moment for me that I think shaped that moment, but also for my kids, it was a lesson for them to understand you don't have to do this by yourself. No matter where you are, no matter what stage you're at in life, whether you are a new parent or getting ready to be a parent, no matter where, you can ask for help and it's okay. It is okay. It's amazing. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Pastor Shane, how freeing was that?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Oh, it was in the moment, it was tough. It was um very emotional because I'm an emotional person by nature when it comes to that stuff, which is not the norm. Um we do say as a staff when Pastor Shane cries, you know God's moving, you know God's moving. It it it it was it was freeing to be able to finally have that conversation. Not a and I don't know that I actually knew I needed it as much as I did, but then to be able to step through that door and then to walk through it and to get help and to get the right people involved. And I mean, I ended up going to counseling, different things, and it was huge. It was huge for me. And for me now, I am so thankful for the opportunity and for the person that stepped up, and then to be able to walk it out, and now I'm able to say, and I don't know that I could have said it before, yeah, it's okay to ask for help. Yeah, yeah, it's huge.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I think for me, I would ask if you're listening, if you're watching this today, you know, I would ask this question. Someone has asked me this question in the past, but over the next 12 months, what is the best use of your time? My guess is that most of us wouldn't say investing in friendships. Right. Wow. My my guess, right, we would say it's working harder at work, putting in a few more hours to get the business up and going. It's, you know, working more on your physical fitness, your physical health, or, you know, fill in the blank for you. But my guess is that most of us don't see the ROI in investing in deep friendships. And I think that's part of the challenge. Right. That's that's part of the issue. We we we want to spend so much time and effort and energy doing all of these other things, but you know, maybe it's the pride thing that you spoke to. I don't, I guess I don't know exactly what the answer is, but I think part of it is we just don't see the value in it. Right. We see the value in so many other things, but close friendships, brotherhood to to come alongside of us and help us. I think part of the time we just don't see the value.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah. You know, even uh two weeks ago, um Monday morning, coming off of a very busy season, a lot of things going on personally, um work related. I get a text from a very close friend of mine that lives in another state, and all it said was, Hey, I was praying for you this morning. Is everything okay? And it opened the door for me to be able to say, you know what, let me give you a call in a little bit. I'm gonna give you a call and let's just talk through some things. And it wasn't anything life shattering, but for me, it was that moment of there is someone out there that that I know if something you know terrible comes up or anything, I can call on that person. And it it that wouldn't happen had you it without the intentionality of building that friendship and realizing it takes more than just me, myself, and I. You know, it's huge.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

In in the in that conversation of of brothers, people alongside you, or maybe the people who are who are like me, who don't don't have kids yet to do that investment in in that sense, um, but they're that's a heart, that's like their goal one day, their heart one day. Um what would you say is like before you became fathers, the the role of friendship for you in making you, how did God use friendships? Even if you like, I don't think anyone's sitting with their friend going, man, this friendship is making me a I'm gonna be a better father one day because of this friend. Does that make sense? Like no one sits there and thinks, like, man, I'm gonna, I want I want David to be in my life because I'm gonna be a better dad one day. Cause but you know what I'm saying? How how have those friendships, how did those friendships form you and shape you, maybe in unexpected ways, as then you stepped into father to go, man, I see the influence of those friends, of those people in my life. Yes, I can call them now, but investing in them before that happened actually then had dividends in my in my family later. Does that maybe make sense? I don't know if you can think of an example of that, or maybe that's just yeah, but I mean, I think what comes to my mind is when we did regen together.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yeah, like David, you and I did that together. Um honestly, that was probably one of the most fulfilling relational years of my life.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Because it gave us built-in space to actually do what biblical friendship is supposed to do, which is make each other better, build each other up, like actually be there for each other, actually like spend time together. And we had an hour and a half or however, you know, every week where we sat in a circle and just talked. Yeah, you know, and obviously there's you know, there was discipleship in it, there was confession in it, but all of that was part of I think the process that now I will be a better dad because of that. Yeah, because of the things that I was able to work through through that process. And I don't think it has to be something like regen. It was awesome. I would sure highly suggest it to anybody, but at the same time, just good friends who you can live life with and you know, confess when you've messed up.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Have someone to go to when there's nobody else to go to, you know, to talk about what's actually going on. Because it's, you know, when you're honest and actually vulnerable, that that stuff happens.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Well, it's that's a that's a an example of really a a program or a group that wins because it's built on biblical principles that men and fathers need. Like the proverb that says a strand of three chords just isn't easily broken. And so um, when I think about the most broken men, it's usually the most isolated men. They're just not they don't have that around. And so spaces like that to confess, to be encouraged, they work because the Bible works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So I think if you gotta have that space, yeah, just to acknowledge that I am from a different generation than both of you men are. And so for me, in in those early years of, and this is not a podcast about ministry or anything like that, and and how to be in ministry, but there's a part of that, that's what I've done all of my life. That's what I've been able to go. And so for me, in those early years, there was this there was this thought that if you're in ministry, you can't have people that are close to you, you can't have friends close to you. And I struggled with that because, and and I don't believe that because I know it's exactly what you said. You can't do this alone, especially in the ministry. But there was this mindset of when you go into ministry because you're gonna be leading all these people in this congregation, you have to be at a place where you can't be that that that's completely unbiblical. You know, God doesn't ask us because we went in ministry to give up that side of us. So it was a hard lesson for me. Do I have great relationships from back in those early days in college? Yes, I do, but it took a long, a long time for me to get to that place. And some breaking traditions of things that I had been taught, not necessarily intentionally, but I had to kind of break that and realize it is important to have those. And that's why I'm so grateful now that I have those relationships, I can call on.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Well, I mean, even looking at Jesus, who uh like every man, specifically every father, every has has a leadership mantle in their home given by God, um, not to not to hold authority and hold up, but to to be the holder up and the lifter up of his family. Um, there's a there's a mantle on them for leadership. And so that narrative of like the leaders go first, sure it's true, leaders eat last, all that kind of stuff, that's all true. But then we equate that to, we equate that to leaders are lonely. Right. And if you're gonna if you're gonna do it, man, you can't bring your wife into that, you can't bring your family, you can't bring other voices in that. And then it just it to me, the picture I'm getting in my head of that moment is is Jesus. And the most um emotionally horrifying, heaviest moment of his life, just moments before he goes to the cross, he's in the garden and he goes to pray. And the scripture says that he's so anxious, he's so, he's so consumed with so he's feeling the weight of it so much, he's sweating, sweating blood. It's it's a it's an actual medical condition. Um, like it's something that can happen to someone when they're feeling just intense weight and anxiety and pressure and burden. And I love that Jesus in that moment, the leader of these 12 guys for the last three years, he says, I need the three of you to come with me.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

And he does have a moment alone with God, but he's there, I need you to, I need you to come with me. I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna go pray. I got, but would you keep watch with me? And I just I love that language. Like, would you would you keep watch with me as I step into this heaviness, as I embrace this pain, I need you to keep watch with me. And I need you to pray with me. I need you to hold me up. Um, and they don't do a great job of that. Yeah, classic guys that fell asleep. You know, like an armchair falling asleep when you know Jesus asked him to pray, whatever. But but I do think it's a beautiful picture of what we're talking through, man. The the best fathers need need good brothers and need that. And so we've talked a little bit, like, okay, influential men in my life. Um, that that conversation of sideways. Um, like I need brothers. And I know I've then the most natural place to go. We can even start there, is just you as fathers to your children, but just like investing down any anything you want to say about just what you both different seasons, three kids who've now grown, um, and incredible kids. I and I have I have a thought even with your kids that I won't share in a minute, but just kids who are gone and then just had just had your first son. Yeah. And so anything in that, okay, we need men above us, we need men beside us, and then we have to invest our lives, starting with children, just anything, maybe just to the dads, just in general, you want to say in that in that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Intentionality is huge there for me, of taking the moments as a dad, in the good moments and the tough moments, because it's not always been easy. Um but being consistent, being intentional, being consistent, and maintaining that. And it can be tough because 18 years is a long time. And so uh those are the big things that I really tried for. And that's that comes down to advice given, correction given, and time given, you know, maintaining we are gonna do things as a family, you know, we're gonna sit down and eat dinner together. It hasn't always been good. Family devotions every morning were not always great. You know, um, there were arguments on the way to church. All of those things happen. And even in all of us pastors and all these, those things happen. But being there and being consistent to me says more than maybe the outcome that you thought you were gonna have, or more than the act of doing it. Because we're gonna try our best and we're gonna do what we can, and we're gonna know that we can fail, you know. And so those were the things that I tried so hard that Kara and I both really tried hard with our kids is to be consistent and to understand that, you know, we first of all for us, we love Jesus. We are Christians, and we are going to serve just like anybody else, no matter what the role is or anything, we are gonna love the Lord, and that's gonna be the basis of our home, not ministry, not anything else, but that we love the Lord. I think it's huge. It's really good.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah, I don't know. Uh you know, I'm two months into this, don't know if I have too much to add. One thing I will say though is what I have learned over these few weeks is the need for selflessness absolutely skyrocketed after after Miller was born. Like, I, you know, I thought when I got married that yeah, selflessness it had to increase. Uh, but having a kid was a total different model.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

He literally can't do anything, he can't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, he yeah, at this point he can barely look at me still. So, you know, but it's required me to view fatherhood and even being a husband in a completely different way. That, you know, at this point, I just have to give up things. Things that I sometimes love to do, that I just do as hobbies, that I do for fun, that I things that I do to relax in downtime. Like I just, at least for this season, I just have to give it up. And I have to be okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

I think that's so good, um, David. And I and I think for for those that are listening, um no matter where you think you are on that journey with your kids now, if you feel like you failed, start now. That's good. Because no matter what's happened in the past and the failures you may see. Start now and change that with your kids because it can make a difference. Because we've all failed at different points. And the journey and the seasons of that are different. You know, I remember that feeling when they were, I had three kids under the age of three, you know. And then you get into these teenage years and you're going, man, I would go back to the days of them being under the age of three because it changes. And in the season now, they're adults. And so learning that role now as the parent, but also understanding they're adults and they can make it's gonna change and it's gonna be different depending on the season and the ages and the different things. But start now because it really can make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

And I think both of those thoughts really translate even for the for every man who's embracing this idea of spiritual family and the investment, like this whole the by countless, countless instances and analogies in the Bible where just when you stop the flow of God's life and God's love through you, it it doesn't leave more for you. It leaves you empty or um and so I was even thinking about I don't think your your any of your kids would be like Pastor David's my spiritual father. I think that'd be weird if they did, uh just because of the relationship we have with them. But I got to be their pastor. Yeah. Um for your daughters, I believe all six years almost, if not, yeah, but all six years of their middle school and high school, I got to be their pastor. And the relationship we have now from years of investment into them is actually like I look back and I go, that's one of the most beautiful gifts God's given me is the relate is friendships and deep love for people that I've invested in spiritually. Um, and like that I get to have that relationship with your family now just because of investment. Like I think it's it's a picture of that and it's beautiful. And you don't have to be in the in a classic familial sense of the word. Like I don't have to have kids to do that. I can live my life that way. Yeah, just pouring out what God's given to me, sharing that with people. I think that's a huge, that's a huge thing. It's a huge win. Um, one of my friends, just as we kind of wrap this up, I remember one of my friends who uh he's carried this into his ministry and into his friendships and in his life with people he invests in. But it's a conversation he had with his father, um, who when he was getting the week he was getting married, his dad to was hanging out with him and they they went and got got dinner one night and they were just talking. And his dad told him, he said, I'll always be, I'll always be um your father. I'll always be your father. Um but as your dad, I'm grateful that now in this season, I've raised a son who I get to be your friend. So I'll always be your father. But today we move from dad to like, I'm proud, I'm proud of the man you became, and just to see how the investment, the sweat, the selflessness, the time, how that paid off into producing someone and raising up someone who honors God, loves God that I'm proud to call a friend and now a brother in my life. And that's the joy and the beauty of spiritual family, of fatherhood, yeah, of being a man of God and doing it the way God calls us to do it. Um so I just think it's it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, there's I can tell you, there's nothing more encouraging as a father than when your kids call you as adults and they need you. Um they when when they have a crisis or they, and it could be even a financial need, you know, and you're like, why did you make such a stupid choice? But at the end of the day, as a dad, the fact that they feel like they can call me and that they can ask, there's joy in that. You know, there's probably some lessons that need to be learned about what about that budget stuff we talked about all those times, you know, all those different things. But there is joy in that for me as a father. Um, and it it speaks to that, it speaks to the relationship where even when we felt like we were failing, they know they can call. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Which I think is a great closing thought, and that's how it works, and it's just is what it is in the kingdom of God is God, you reap what you sow. You don't always reap where you sow, yeah, but God will bring it back to you. And so just the selflessness, God rewards maybe through an incredible moment like that where they do come back, and they all that time produces joy in me and in our friendship now. Maybe it's just God honoring that in a different way in their life and blessing. You never know how it's going to come back. But so just whether you're a father now or you're someone who's embracing this idea of spiritual family, um, I think that's the challenge is don't miss the moments where God may be inviting you to share your life, to pour out your life, to live selflessly and take up the mantle of I'll I'll be a voice and I'll be a help and I'll be a shoulder for these people in my life. And so think about, we want to challenge you, think about that, whether that who's a voice I need to invite to speak into, who's a person I need to invite to walk alongside. And is there someone in my life I'm missing? God may be calling me to invest in. Maybe that is your kids, maybe that's someone at work, maybe that's a friend that you know you desperately need to call and you know they're gonna pick up if you do. Just don't carry it alone, don't walk it alone. God wants you, He's created you, designed you to do this thing called life, being a man who of God, being a man who follows after God to do it with other people. The best fathers that have the best brothers. And so we were grateful for the last several weeks we've had together. We're excited about Father's Day this week. We hope to see you there. Thank you so much for taking the journey with us.