SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to our conversation as we head towards Father's Day, all about conversations around manhood and the converse uh conversations God is walking us through. Um, this is episode two. If you're joining us from episode one, we're so glad that you're here. Um, if you somehow missed episode one, I would encourage you. Um, even pause this now. Um, we had an awesome conversation between Pastor Brian and Pastor Darrell, um, who did a phenomenal job kind of setting the stage for the conversation we're gonna have today. But I'm excited that you guys are joining us here, excited to jump in. But before we do, I did want to introduce who's with us today. Um, we haven't got a chance to be yet. My name's Pastor Ben. Um, I'm our Wiley campus pastor. To my left, we have uh Pastor Oscar. Um he's our Wiley Spanish campus pastor, um, an incredible man of God, and so thankful for his insight that we're gonna lean from today. Um then we have Brother Bill Beaman uh to my right here. Um, an elder in our church, uh, someone who's walked along um many aspects of just the church journey. I got to talk just a little bit before this. Almost 20 years of being here at North Place, and um something that I'm excited to learn from you guys today. Um, you guys are fathers of all boys. Yes, Oscar unique guy. And what a blessing. Yes. And I know uh Oscar for you, you have one who is kind of in that young adult uh stage of life, a high school uh guy as well, and then uh one in middle school. Exactly. Um, Bill, you have two that have graduated from high school. One has just recently graduated from college, um, and then one who's in middle school as well. So um, and I'm I'm just kind of new to this whole thing and trying to grasp it along the way. You're doing great. You got two little ones, guys. Six-year-old daughter and uh three-year-old son, and um, yeah, it's a journey, a different journey every day. And I know you guys have walked through a lot more of that journey than I have. So excited for the conversation we're gonna have today and just to jump into this. Um, if you did get a chance to listen to episode one with Pastor Brian and Pastor Daryl, um, you know that a large portion of this conversation is centered around um a book that we're reflecting on by John Eldridge called Father by God. It's an incredible opportunity just for um as men to reflect on God's relationship with us and how he's guiding us and uh modeling what it looks like to become a man in every aspect of our lives. So um today I want to uh open up maybe this with a conversation so people can um he'll hear a little bit more about your perspective and where this conversation might lead. But uh would love to ask you guys to open up when uh when you think about the phrase becoming a man, uh, what often comes to mind when you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Well, uh, I know becoming a man is a process of maturing. Um being able to uh follow as well as lead. Um and and I know for men uh that's something that we're constantly looking for. Is that a good example of how to lead? Um and so it's a striving that some men accomplish through their their fathers, and others may not have that father figure to be able to do something like that. So uh it's one of those things that is it's a journey for each person, and I can tell you mine's is unique because I didn't have a father. So I accomplished all the things I did for being a man through a lot of different examples of different men um in my life personally. And so that was a journey to be able to say taking pieces from all the different men in my life, taking from my uncle, my grandfather, men at the church, um, being in the Boy Scouts, things like that. Um, just trying to figure out what's the best example of a man for me it would be. And uh it's still a work in progress. Um and I'm 50 years old, but that's crazy. But uh that's the truth. And um I pray to God that I I'm able to accomplish some of these things that my n my sons need uh as an example for a man. And so um I think so far so good with them, but uh it's just something that I am constantly working on all the time. And uh need reassurance, unfortunately. That's that's something that I I'm proud of being in North Place for, is to be able to be in a community where I can get that kind of reassurance that I am doing some things correctly, but I know there's some things I still can work on, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

For sure. And uh Oscar, question for you uh with that, uh kind of in the same uh perspective, but was there a season of your life where you realized manhood was more about formation rather than achievement?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if I'm honest with you, when I was younger, I thought becoming a man was just about becoming bigger, older, and having more things. Yeah. Like that's what that was my that's I don't know. Uh if it comes from like an immigrant background where when my family came to the States, you know, the world was wide open. And what what can I get and how can I grow? Uh, but now I think I it's more like what Bill was saying, it's more about how can I become the best leader for my kids, for my wife, for my family, uh, and for like I'm starting to get to the point where I'm thinking legacy. Like now my kids are gonna start having kids in the next few years, and how can I affect that all the way down to those generations, you know? So it's more about forming myself and um yeah, I think yeah, it's more about forming myself and how can me be informed form my kids and how can I be a good example. Having three the toughest thing I think about having three boys is that uh I got three boys that are gonna be some other family's leader, you know. And so how can I how can I go ahead and start impacting that now and forming myself well so that they can be formed well because they're gonna be forming, you know, they're gonna be leading their homes. And so it's a big challenge to me to be to be a dad of uh of boys because that's what I'm shaping. I'm three there's three households in the future that are gonna depend on the work that I did with my kids. And so I think it formation is the key to to becoming a man. And you know, I have my my teenagers right now, they always want to get bigger, you know, and tall, like just be I'm a man, you know, or or like you know, you you you see the right or they just want to act like they can't wait to be taller to you. Yes, yes, to feel it like a man, you know, like I'm uh being a man of the house or whatever. And I'm like, man, if you only knew it's not about how big you are or what you get, it's about who you become. That's cool. So that's that's an interesting idea to think how that has evolved for me.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah. I I love how our perspective changes along the way. Um, I can think back to so many times, like in uh my adolescence, where there was years, so whether it's in college, right, where um you go to uh pursue a degree and coming out of school, you think, oh man, like now that I've got this, now it's time for me to prove myself to the world, right? That I'm gonna go and uh get this job and prove to whether it's your parents or the world around you that like, hey, the next step for me, I have it all planned out along the way. And I'm the expert now. Yeah. And then and I love how God guides us through that journey. Even the false sense of assurance is along the way where He He truly meets us um in our uh whether it's ignorance or um just determination and shows us that um his way is always greater, and the the longer we walk in that journey, the greater perspective that we have. And um that's kind of where I want to jump into this conversation today, if you guys will allow me to. Uh John Eldridge in his book, Again, Fathered by God, uh, points to six stages of a man. Um it starts really early in life. And um where he leans to this is that all of us as men are incomplete, that there is there's all perspectives um that or journeys that we walk on, where it's um the world around us, whether we have incredible father figures, or maybe like Bill, you mentioned, like you didn't have a father figure that or a your father wasn't like present uh in your life. And um because of that, there is there might be pieces along this journey um that we struggle with or we don't we can't relate to, but um we can oftentimes allow those things to impact further down the journey if we're not careful. And uh what I wanted to do today, just to open, is just kind of walk through those six stages that um John Eldridge um points to in his book, and then have some conversations around the way. So um I'm gonna read these here, but the first stage is uh what he calls beloved son, uh, knowing that you're loved before you've done anything, um, that the foundation of everything, everything else is built on. That um just because you are who you are, that you are loved, and then that um you're seen and you're valued and you're cared for. And again, some some of us um have had opportunity to experience that from a very early age, and others don't um have that privilege of experiencing that. And something that I think is really um instrumental in what uh the author shares in this conversation is that we can have seasons of feeling that, um, but also have seasons where we don't feel that. So um that's the first season. The next stage is uh what he would call like the cowboy stage, the years of uh adventure risk and finding out what you're made of. Um, that boys need to be tested, um, not uh what he would refer to as coded. Um, that we don't need to need to be programmed along the way. And um I I want to just take a moment here. I maybe I'd love to hear your guys' stories on this. Um, I can think back to a time I grew up in uh like suburban, uh just very not city, but also very much not country. And my mom's whole family are they're they're country folk, like um they all raise cattle, um, they everything they eat is made on the farm um from the cow to the vegetables and everything in between. Um so I always thought that was such a cool perspective um to kind of experience, but not really fully experienced. And I can remember the first time um that my grandfather put me on a tractor. I think I might have been 12 years old. Like the don't do this at home kind of stuff. Um but it was it was it was uh hay belling season and he needed somebody to rake the hay. Um and then after that, he needed someone to load the hay on top of the trailer and take it out. And I mean, within probably 30 seconds, I had almost broke the tractor and um and messed all things up and and uh pinched the the trailer between the tractor there. And um, but there was that moment where my my grandfather understood like there needs to be a sense of adventure and risk um and and growing that he initiated within me that I'll forever be grateful for. That it wasn't just like, hey, uh figure it out, or not just like, hey, I'll do everything for you and help you take things along the way, but no, go figure it out and process through it. Do you guys have any maybe moments in your life where that was something that you experienced?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Well, I tell you, um hearing your story even is awesome. Uh I I think not having that father figure in place, uh, and not even being aware that that was something that was maybe not the best thing for me. You kind of navigate in a sense of just trial and error and uh just you know, seeing things and you know, there's not really anybody. Well, there was my grandfather, but we really didn't have good conversations like that. Um, questions that I had. Uh you try to navigate it as a young man in the inner city uh the best way you could. Uh maybe through what you heard from other guys on the playground, you know, you kind of put together your own ideas that way. And that's kind of how my life went as far as figuring out how to, you know, process as a young man. Um it was it was a revelation to me as I got older, hearing that I had friends around me from college and up who had father figures at home. And so that's when I became aware, oh, maybe there's something missing. Uh, there's a detriment here. Um and so I had to figure out well what what was I missing. There was some some lack of development there. And um, so it it wasn't it wasn't necessarily so evident for me to know if I was hitting the mark in areas that and uh I'm sure um I developed some things naturally and got open doors. Um, but it wasn't something that I, you know, really knew as a to aspire for. And later on I realized that I need to make up the gap um for this because I didn't have those things. I didn't have a relationship with a father or a grandfather like that. My grandfather was there. I don't want to ever disrespect my grandfather, and even my uncle was there as a as a substitute. But there was times that I can really remember needing somebody to guide me in wisdom and some of the decision making I made in high school and college. Um uh again, based on what I see. It wasn't based on what anybody told me. So I had to make up some ground. I recognize that right away. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

That's good, that's good. So the next stage past the cowboy um is the warrior. Um, so the season of of fighting for what's right for people you love and for against our own sin. So saying, I'm gonna, that conqueror in you says, hey, I can I can do this, I'm gonna make it happen. I think we probably have all sensed that, whether it's that uh that surge of hormone or testosterone or whatever it is um in a young man's life that that pushes them towards that. But the next stage is warrior. Uh beyond that is the the lover stage, right? And the awakening of the heart to beauty, to a woman and to God's romance with you. I think when we hear the term lover, you go quick to um our spouses or um that that love that kind of just enters the scene. But uh what Eldritch points to is this very real reality um that we are made aware of the beauty around us, not just not just in who we love, but also in the design that God has placed in our lives and the music. And uh, Oscar, I know music's a really big deal for you, and that's a big passion of yours. Um, but that there's that romance that comes into it. We become there's a stage of that we're called lovers. The next stage is uh that king stage, where the years of reigning, leading, providing, and blessing others from a place of strength. And then the ultimate stage or the kind of that last stage that you get to, um, a stage that we kind of, if Pastor Brian shared, that we heard from uh Pastor Daryl in that sage stage, that elder years, passing on what you've learned, fathering younger men, and walking close with God. And um, one thing that I want to just bring up real quick before we jump back into a little bit of a conversation around those stages, is that though, yes, we walk through all those stages as men, and uh what we talked about sometimes we might be deficient in some stages and not even realize it till later in life. Um, one thing that uh Eldrich makes it clear, and then also our walk with Christ is becomes even more evident, um, is that even if we miss those stages or we don't have someone present to push us towards those stages, or we do have a person who, when we look at our father figure or influence in us that are amazing, right? Um, everything will always fall short of the guidance and the counsel of God in our lives and the clarity that He brings us. Um so in these six stages, um Eldrich points to the reality that some men will get to a spot where um they're in that king stage but have lost or didn't experience what it feels like to be a beloved son and how that can be a challenge, or um maybe he they missed out on another stage when it came to um becoming a lover and they had never experienced what it looked like to be a warrior. Um what I'd love to hear from you, maybe Oscar, is um a season of your life where you felt like whether whatever stage you can what you're thinking of now, um where you realized, oh, maybe I am deficient in one of these areas.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, well, when you were talking about uh being on the farm, it made me think of I'm in the season right now of my life where you know my dad wasn't big on being a mechanic and fixing his car or being out, you know, uh we always paid for somebody to mow the lawn and all the things. And and so I I started getting this longing of like what how do why don't why do I not know that stuff? And even though my dad, you would think he would have taught me, and I'm sure he would have done it if he if he like if he knew how, right? And so I to I joke around with people. I'm now officially a certified YouTube mechanic and YouTube gardener and YouTube everything. And so you you made me uh remember a story. Well, recently we bought a property, and and when we bought the property, there was an old dead tree uh on the property, and and the city sent us a note. They were like, you need to knock this tree down. And so I did what I've always known. I called a service, and when I saw what they were gonna charge me, I was like, I don't want to pay that much money to knock an old dead tree down. And so I was really inspired and encouraged. And so I got on YouTube, learned how to knock down a tree, rented a chainsaw, and told my kids we're gonna knock down a tree, and and brought my teenagers out. And and to this day, that moment is so meaningful to them because it and it wasn't, you know, we knocked out, it was never any any more difficult than what what it was supposed to be, but it was so much more meaningful uh because dad showed them how to do that, right? And as much as I could sit there and go, oh, I never had a dad that you know helped me knock down a tree, it was such a cool moment to be able to gain that that I was missing, right? Go back to that and uh attain that moment because when I when the tree came down, I was the little kid, as as as much as my kids were, right? I enjoyed it that much. But then for them to have that reference to me as dad was so meaningful. And that kind of you know, kind of urged me to hey do more things like that. And so I'm going back to this cowboy phase, I guess you could call it, where I'm discovering all these new things that I've never done before. I'm working on my car just a couple weeks ago. I was working on my on my kid's truck with them, right? And so it's just that idea that it it's it you can go back and and regain something. Yeah, and the beauty of it is that at this age, at this stage for me, it's something that I get I can get back and then I can pass on to my kids, and now it's meaningful to them. So that's super cool. It's that that I can go ahead and be passed on, and they don't have to wait on them being my age and trying to figure it all out with their kids. They're getting a new experience as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

So it's good. Bill, I know, I know you're the perfect father, and that you just every every parenting thing along the way, I know that it's just been um success after success. But for those of you talking about for those of us that are learning at the table and still trying to process through uh this reality, um, I often think of uh moments, I can think back on moments and just in my early um moments of parenting. I have again a six-year-old daughter, three-year-old son, um, where I will um have a moment where uh my flesh overcomes probably what God would do in that moment or he he would want me to do. And I might act out in anger or frustration because of a silly little thing that there is a mess up there, and um, and then there's instant regret that comes over you, right? You're like, oh man, I missed it. Um and um nothing major, thankfully, thankfully. Um but like there's this, yeah, you and I think oftentimes what God uh allows in those moments um is uh for us to grow and for us to learn. Um, is there ever that moment that you can think back on, whether it's been recent, like as I know you have young uh young men in your house or maybe a journey along the way where when you look at these six stages that we're talking about, um and maybe it was a moment in fatherhood where um you were there was just a moment that rose up and you're like, man, I might have been deficient in one of those areas, and God got to walk you through a process of healing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Um I know one of the things that I had to learn through this process is that, you know, unfortunately, no matter what I do, whether I intended to be seen or not, my sons see that. I'm an example to them, even when I do things the wrong way. And so I wasn't a hundred percent aware of that until I started seeing some of the things that I had done be reflected in the behavior of my boys. And my wife was horrified by that. She's like, oh my God, they're imitating you, Bill. And it's it's silly things, things like words and jokes and things that you never think that they would pay attention to, but they are watching you, even how you make decisions, how you respond in in moments where you, you know, you maybe you should be trusting God a little more, but you let emotions overcome you or your reactions are anger or frustration, and and you take out those things in the wrong way as far as the reaction. Not ever thinking that your children are watching you. And and they're the great indicators of what you're doing because again, they emulate you in those moments. And so growing up in this process, I see that so much more now, ever than before. And uh and one of the things I I love regeneration about is uh is helping me understand that even at this late stage in my development, being 50 years old, I'm still in the process of you know giving some things to God that I should have gave to him many years ago, um, as far as trusting him. Um, because I don't only want to trust him just for me. I want to trust him because, kind of to your point, Oscar, you're you're leaving a legacy behind of what to do in a struggle. How do you respond to moments where fear could take over? And why does fear take over? Is because you're truly not giving that thing to the Lord or anger or frustration. And so that's something that I definitely uh uh understand better now. And not ever, when you said perfect, I'm like, whoa, well, if you guys ever watch me, uh, but you know, my kids are my great indicator. Um, I ask them, how am I doing? Because I have to, um, because I want to know what their response is to my leadership as a father, and they all love me. And so it's a miracle. It's like, praise God, you know, but I've come a long way because. There were so many wrong ways I responded in front of them. And uh being a husband, a father, I know that these are things and traits that they're gonna take into their marriages. And so I'm much more aware of that. I'm much more aware that my worshiping is affecting them because if I'm a worshiper, they're a worshiper. And if I trust God, I they'll trust God. And so it's important to me to be a little bit more uh God focused, God centered, Christ-centered. Yeah, and that's important.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

I want to add something to that. Uh, I think one of the biggest things I've learned over the years, to your point, is the value of being able to apologize to your kid. Yes, you know, because you can go back and realize that you did something, but it's so much deeper when you can come back and say, hey man, I was praying, the Lord showed me this, I was in regeneration, I don't know, whatever, whatever, talking to my buddies, and I and I really understood this. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

And it's so valuable because um, like I've gotten to do that with my kids so many times, and it's kind of become a rhythm for me because it's like, man, I don't want to leave that that that wrong seed planted there and for it to bear the wrong fruit. So I love the idea of, hey man, I'm sorry that I did this. I'm sorry that I didn't know any better. I've learned to do that. Hey, I didn't know any better. Yeah, and nobody taught me, you know. And and so let me let me make sure that you're better because I'm honest about it.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

And and understanding our imperfection, being ready to be in a place where you receive that, oh, I didn't do that right. Um, and understand that there needs to be some flexibility there, but uh being sensitive enough to know that uh because of my imperfection, these are things that I have to watch out for. Um, and not being overly sensitive when somebody's trying to give me good correction or you know, or good feedback. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

That's so good. And I think um something that I'm learning along the process, but going to people that we love the most and saying, look, um, tell me what where I'm at. Yeah, tell me how tell me you're the closest proximity, you know um my my good things and you know the my worst things. Um but also being asking for forgiveness and allowing the people that we're modeling that that journey of manhood um and that pursuit of what God is calling us to, we're modeling to those people around us, showing them that it is a journey, and there and no one's really ever arrived. Let me say this last thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I I really am learning to respect my wife Trina around her because she sees me the most, she knows me the most, she's known me the longest. And so sometimes her observations are dead on, and I'm not ready to receive that kind of dead on criticism. So so I have to recognize that God has put her in in my my particular space because we're made for each other, and I have to recognize that she sees me better than I see myself. And uh that's my guys and to say, hey, you you might want to correct us. And so I'm doing better acknowledging acknowledging those things. So that's so good.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

That's so good. Um, I know a lot of our conversation today has revolved around fatherhood or experiences within that, but um I did just want to point to the reality that the psalmist shares um in Psalm 27, 10, it says, Though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me. Um and there's power in that, even if um whether there is an incredible experience of fatherly love or parental love there, or whether that was absent, we have a heavenly father who is there with us and wants to walk with us um through this journey. So um, as we've had this conversation, I just want to encourage uh those of you that are listening that uh as you're engaging with this, if God's highlighted something to you to lean into that, see where God has you in this season. Um the reality is this um we'll never uh walk into a full perfection of all that God has for us while we're on this side of heaven. Um, but He wants to guide us, He wants to lead us. And there's gonna be seasons where we're up on the mountain and seasons where we're down in the valley. So um just one quick, one last question, one last word of advice from each of you. Um if there's if there's someone that's listening right now that feels stuck, um, maybe they're stuck in a season um and they don't know how to get out of that, or if they feel like I have God has me in this season, but there's uh past wounds, uh things that I haven't quite healed yet in my past, what would be a word of encouragement, a word of advice for those um that might be experiencing that right now?

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I would say, um, I would say we are humans and none of us have a body designed to be a superhero, which means we we're not capable of carrying everything by ourselves and being responsible for everything. So I would say if you're stuck, find yourself some good, godly men. Uh go find the guy that you see that I'm that you say I want to be like him, and like take him to d take him to lunch, take him to dinner, create relationships, surround yourself with people, don't carry things alone, uh, don't isolate, don't separate yourself from people. Find models that you want to follow, emulate them, and and take take yourself to the place where people are, um, because that's how God designed us to be, right? That God designed us to be with, you know, superheroes come from like trauma, and and they they are they're happy on the outside and they're strong on the outside, but they're always hurting on the inside. Don't be a superhero, you don't gotta do this by yourself. Find your people, find men that are gonna that are gonna lead you in the right direction. Uh keep coming to church, find your people, and let that let that be what builds you up. Uh listen to stuff like this and and just learn from other people's advice, and that's gonna get you unstuck and and moving in the right direction for growth. That's that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I I would have to echo a lot of what Oscar said. One of the things that I had a revelation for is how important community is. Um, we are so weird when we're alone. I know that's a quote that you use pretty often, but it's so true. Uh, when we choose to navigate in our own self, there's no one else that could help us or coach us. No coach could ever be uh uh done by ourselves. We need somebody that's able to see us from the outside uh to be able to give us good advice and and vice versa. It's a mutual thing. You know, God has brought us into this thing not just to be coached, but to also give from our experiences too. So community is such a benefit. And uh I always recommend that um for a lot of us guys, because we do go into our caves and we do go off into our own, you know, worlds whenever we are feeling threatened or or scared or fearful, uh, we need to allow community in because it's uh it's that community that's gonna help us recognize some of these things that we didn't see, that we're deficient of. Um, because uh what other way will we know? God does that. He gives us community to be able to show us those things. So it's great.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

That's so good. Guys, thank you so much for your time and insight today. For those of you listening, I just want to wrap up this conversation by saying this um, that in this journey of pursuing Christ and all that God has called you to be, it's not this proverbial ladder that we're climbing that it's linear, that one step at a time, and if we mess up, we fall all the way back down to the bottom. But rather, God is is walking with us on this road towards who he is and all that he's called us to. And um, we're believing that God is calling you into a season of nearness to him, that he has so much for you, that he is for you, he's not against you. Um, and regardless of where you might feel in this journey, um, that he is there, he is present, and there's a community here that would love to champion you along the way. I'm excited for our next episode, episode three. Get to hear an incredible conversation about what does it look like to have spiritual brotherhood and walk in that journey together. So I hope that you'll join us uh for that next conversation. We'll see you guys.